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I operate a WarmTone in daily production and have had experience with Toolex Alpha and SMT presses in other plants. I have never tried the Pheenix Alpha or Newbilt hands on so I can't comment on their mechanical operation. As you will tell I'm kind of a WT fanboy.
I will try to give as much information as I can from both the operator's and business owner's point of view, because sometimes these can be at odds with each other and it's up to you to decide what is important. I have broken down the points into separate decision factors that I think you should consider when buying one of these new presses.
1. customer service: IMHO this is the most important factor that trumps everything else. There is no point having an amazing high tech press when it takes 2 weeks to get an answer if something breaks. I want to be clear I have zero knowledge or experience with Pheenix Alpha or Newbilt on after-sales, but when we went shopping for new presses the initial exchanges with Newbilt and Pheenix basically killed the deals for us. Pheenix has almost zero web presence and Newbilt wanted us to go through a local sales agent who obviously had a lot less experience pressing vinyl than we did. When we sent emails to Viryl they replied within 10 minutes and always had detailed information to offer. In our minds the sale was 99% confirmed before we even went to visit them. Customer service and tech support use an online ticket system that is fast and efficient. Contact and visit each company and choose one that gives you a good feeling about what you are getting into.
2. geography: Newbilt and Pheenix are more Euro-centric, maybe you would get better service from them within their region. Hopefully someone with experience there can chime in. Viryl is obviously more North American biased but they seem to be somewhat more international than the other two. We are based in a small country with no other pressing plants so this was a big deal for us.
3. price: we never got a formal quote for a Pheenix machine but the Newbilt duplex system would have been cheaper than a WarmTone. You could just about built an entire bare bones plant with a Newbilt and ancillary equipment for the price of a WarmTone with no moulds or boiler or anything else.
4. versatility: obviously the Newbilt is going to be more flexible with making things like picture discs, splatter vinyl etc. which the WarmTone can't do. Aussie above mentioned that the WT can be run in semi auto mode, but actually it can't. That might be a deal breaker for some. Viryl now has a semi auto LiteTone which we have decided to buy so I can report back in a few months. Mould changeovers on the WT are very fast, that's something to consider if you want to open a single press operation. 7" conversion on the WT needs some work out of the box, we have done some small modifications to improve aspects of this. If you mainly press 7" I don't know if the WT is suitable but it works fine for occasional 7" orders.
5. mould changeover: can be done in about 10 minutes with an experienced operator and a helper if you leave the quick connect hoses hooked up. The whole trimmer module is on wheels and opens up out of the way so you can get right inside the press chassis. You can use the press to get the upper stamper in place then the lower stamper is a breeze. 7" conversion or back again with two experienced engineers can be done in about an hour. One person works on the premould while the other works on the trimmer. This is a big big plus for us since we don't have the luxury of one press per format.
6. stamper changeover: takes 3 minutes max on a WarmTone. You release the stamper ring and pull out the bushing, put in a new stamper and do the reverse. Almost impossible to screw up and very nice and efficient. Another big plus for short run operators.
7. safety: all machines seem to be a big improvement on the old machines. The Pheenix machine seems to have a similar safety cage setup to the WarmTone and I think these are safer for operators. I know Viryl has put a lot of emphasis on safety with the WT with solenoid locks, hardware and software interlocks etc. It's almost impossible to get injured unless you're really dumb. I know this is not priority #1 for some business owners but as an operator I sure appreciate it.
8. reliability & service: I guess it's hard to call reliability for any of these new machines since none of them have been running long enough. The WT comes with a very comprehensive operator's manual and almost all the automation and electrical parts are available off the shelf. There is not a single part in there we couldn't easily replace on our own. Cycle times are a rabbit hole I don't want to jump down here, but I would guess the Pheenix and WT are probably on a par with each other, while Newbilts look slowww. For an inexperienced operator these machines will all be faster than an old press without any PLC control, but for a very very experienced operator you might actually be able to squeeze slightly fast cycle times out of the older hardware. For plants like ours that's a pointless consideration because we prefer to run slightly longer cycles to squeeze out extra sound quality and changeover time is more important than production speed. For the really huge plants pumping out tens of millions of records per year the difference between 28 and 22 seconds per cycle is enormous, but that's partly why I think those big plants suck. If you are at that kind of purchasing level you shouldn't be doing your research in forums so let's just say that Pheenix and Viryl are both fast enough.
9. cycle times, process etc: Viryl has very nice internet connected software called ADAPT that lets you monitor your presses remotely, and they can also diagnose and fix problems for you directly. The HMI design is well laid out and just makes it easier to do your job as an operator. The extruder is able to work with basically any good PVC compounds which is something people overlook when building a plant. PVC compounds are extremely variable and you can't press records without compound that works with your machine. Once you get your settings for different colors and manufacturers dialed in you can save them in the HMI and specify the compound for each job. Saves a lot of time and wasted compound. I assume that Newbilt and Pheenix are also running computer controlled extruders on the new machines for similar benefits, but maybe someone can confirm that.
Something I am curious about for any Pheenix Alpha owners, there's only one video I can find of the machine operating and I noticed they were stacking up hundreds of records with no cooling plates between them. The WT has an automated cooling plate stacker and you can specify how many records per cooling plate, does the WD12 have any option like that?
General comment: I noticed there are people buying WarmTones, Newbilts etc. with almost zero experience of engineering or vinyl and expecting to be able to take orders from day one. Part of this might be the fault of sales in both companies making things sound too easy. Please understand that these are not laser copiers, they are complicated industrial machines and even an experienced engineer will take months getting the process right in a new plant. You will not get anywhere near the claimed cycle times at first. Someone with no mechanical understanding basically has a few years ahead of them to become truly experienced.
If you are thinking about buying one of these machines, go to their factory and do a hands on demo. Ask to do a mould change and a few stamper changes yourself. Press a few hundred records. Get a feel for how easy they are going to be in real world production. Don't rely on some idiot in a web forum
Any other questions about the WT let me know and I'll try to help.
Hi, nice to meet y'all.I operate a WarmTone in daily production and have had experience with Toolex Alpha and SMT presses in other plants. I have never tried the Pheenix Alpha or Newbilt hands on so I can't comment on their mechanical operation. As you will tell I'm kind of a WT fanboy.I will try to give as much information as I can from both the operator's and business owner's point of view, because sometimes these can be at odds with each other and it's up to you to decide what is important. I have broken down the points into separate decision factors that I think you should consider when buying one of these new presses.1. customer service: IMHO this is the most important factor that trumps everything else. There is no point having an amazing high tech press when it takes 2 weeks to get an answer if something breaks. I want to be clear I have zero knowledge or experience with Pheenix Alpha or Newbilt on after-sales, but when we went shopping for new presses the initial exchanges with Newbilt and Pheenix basically killed the deals for us. Pheenix has almost zero web presence and Newbilt wanted us to go through a local sales agent who obviously had a lot less experience pressing vinyl than we did. When we sent emails to Viryl they replied within 10 minutes and always had detailed information to offer. In our minds the sale was 99% confirmed before we even went to visit them. Customer service and tech support use an online ticket system that is fast and efficient. Contact and visit each company and choose one that gives you a good feeling about what you are getting into.2. geography: Newbilt and Pheenix are more Euro-centric, maybe you would get better service from them within their region. Hopefully someone with experience there can chime in. Viryl is obviously more North American biased but they seem to be somewhat more international than the other two. We are based in a small country with no other pressing plants so this was a big deal for us.3. price: we never got a formal quote for a Pheenix machine but the Newbilt duplex system would have been cheaper than a WarmTone. You could just about built an entire bare bones plant with a Newbilt and ancillary equipment for the price of a WarmTone with no moulds or boiler or anything else.4. versatility: obviously the Newbilt is going to be more flexible with making things like picture discs, splatter vinyl etc. which the WarmTone can't do. Aussie above mentioned that the WT can be run in semi auto mode, but actually it can't. That might be a deal breaker for some. Viryl now has a semi auto LiteTone which we have decided to buy so I can report back in a few months. Mould changeovers on the WT are very fast, that's something to consider if you want to open a single press operation. 7" conversion on the WT needs some work out of the box, we have done some small modifications to improve aspects of this. If you mainly press 7" I don't know if the WT is suitable but it works fine for occasional 7" orders.5. mould changeover: can be done in about 10 minutes with an experienced operator and a helper if you leave the quick connect hoses hooked up. The whole trimmer module is on wheels and opens up out of the way so you can get right inside the press chassis. You can use the press to get the upper stamper in place then the lower stamper is a breeze. 7" conversion or back again with two experienced engineers can be done in about an hour. One person works on the premould while the other works on the trimmer. This is a big big plus for us since we don't have the luxury of one press per format.6. stamper changeover: takes 3 minutes max on a WarmTone. You release the stamper ring and pull out the bushing, put in a new stamper and do the reverse. Almost impossible to screw up and very nice and efficient. Another big plus for short run operators.7. safety: all machines seem to be a big improvement on the old machines. The Pheenix machine seems to have a similar safety cage setup to the WarmTone and I think these are safer for operators. I know Viryl has put a lot of emphasis on safety with the WT with solenoid locks, hardware and software interlocks etc. It's almost impossible to get injured unless you're really dumb. I know this is not priority #1 for some business owners but as an operator I sure appreciate it.8. reliability & service: I guess it's hard to call reliability for any of these new machines since none of them have been running long enough. The WT comes with a very comprehensive operator's manual and almost all the automation and electrical parts are available off the shelf. There is not a single part in there we couldn't easily replace on our own. Cycle times are a rabbit hole I don't want to jump down here, but I would guess the Pheenix and WT are probably on a par with each other, while Newbilts look slowww. For an inexperienced operator these machines will all be faster than an old press without any PLC control, but for a very very experienced operator you might actually be able to squeeze slightly fast cycle times out of the older hardware. For plants like ours that's a pointless consideration because we prefer to run slightly longer cycles to squeeze out extra sound quality and changeover time is more important than production speed. For the really huge plants pumping out tens of millions of records per year the difference between 28 and 22 seconds per cycle is enormous, but that's partly why I think those big plants suck. If you are at that kind of purchasing level you shouldn't be doing your research in forums so let's just say that Pheenix and Viryl are both fast enough.9. cycle times, process etc: Viryl has very nice internet connected software called ADAPT that lets you monitor your presses remotely, and they can also diagnose and fix problems for you directly. The HMI design is well laid out and just makes it easier to do your job as an operator. The extruder is able to work with basically any good PVC compounds which is something people overlook when building a plant. PVC compounds are extremely variable and you can't press records without compound that works with your machine. Once you get your settings for different colors and manufacturers dialed in you can save them in the HMI and specify the compound for each job. Saves a lot of time and wasted compound. I assume that Newbilt and Pheenix are also running computer controlled extruders on the new machines for similar benefits, but maybe someone can confirm that.Something I am curious about for any Pheenix Alpha owners, there's only one video I can find of the machine operating and I noticed they were stacking up hundreds of records with no cooling plates between them. The WT has an automated cooling plate stacker and you can specify how many records per cooling plate, does the WD12 have any option like that?General comment: I noticed there are people buying WarmTones, Newbilts etc. with almost zero experience of engineering or vinyl and expecting to be able to take orders from day one. Part of this might be the fault of sales in both companies making things sound too easy. Please understand that these are not laser copiers, they are complicated industrial machines and even an experienced engineer will take months getting the process right in a new plant. You will not get anywhere near the claimed cycle times at first. Someone with no mechanical understanding basically has a few years ahead of them to become truly experienced.If you are thinking about buying one of these machines, go to their factory and do a hands on demo. Ask to do a mould change and a few stamper changes yourself. Press a few hundred records. Get a feel for how easy they are going to be in real world production. Don't rely on some idiot in a web forumAny other questions about the WT let me know and I'll try to help.
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